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Verbatim text
Lee:
Welcome to the Agency Trailblazer Podcast. This is your host, Lee. And on today’s show, we’re talking with Dana James Mwangi all about the importance of telling your story. It’s your story that has power and that attracts the right sorts of clients. So sit back, relax, grab a notepad and pen and enjoy the ride. This podcast is brought to you by the agency trailblazer community. Is agency life stressing you out? Then? It is our mission to help you build an agency that you love. We’ve created a community which includes the Agency Reset Roadmap, that will allow you to get your agency back on the right track. We also have lots of noble, straight to the point, easy to consume workshops. We have a thriving community of other agency owners, and we all wrap up every month with a mastermind call with myself and sometimes a special guest where we unpack your questions. For more details, check out agency Trailblazer Comm. Welcome to a conversation with me. The usual guy, Mr. Lee Jackson.
Lee:
And today we have on the show Dana James Mwangi, how are you today?
Dana James Mwangi:
I am great, Lee. I’m so excited to be on your show.
Lee:
I’m excited for you to be on our show. We we met on Facebook of all awesome places, and I consumed a whole load of your content and then got a bit nervous about asking you to come on the show. But you said yes. Absolutely. Here we are.
Dana James Mwangi:
Yeah, I was I was honoured to be asked.
Lee:
Oh, well, there you go. So look at us both. The most gushing 30s of the Agency Trailblazer podcast ever just happened today. So, folks, if you don’t know who Dana James is, you can find her on danajamesmwangi.com. And I will make sure I pop a link in the show notes as well. She is a legend, creates great content and also creates some great downloads. So as opposed to me trying to kind of make this big introduction for you, I would prefer if you, Dana, could just tell us a little bit about yourself and then we will go on a journey with you.
Dana James Mwangi:
Okay. I’ll try to tell you a little bit. So I started out as a corporate in-house graphic designer and I was doing mainly print design. I’ve designed everything from chequebooks to those annoying letters you get in the mail from banks that have handwritten envelopes that say, yeah, that was me, that was me, man.
Speaker 3
I’m sorry.
Dana James Mwangi:
But I was like, hey, open up a checking account with us. And, you know, that was my design. And I did it for several banks, several financial institutions. Then I went on to do package design, design Hangtags stuff for baskets and hangers, all types of houseware products. But that taught me something because I was doing it for companies like every major retail chain you can think of. So I’m getting exposed to all these different brand guides from Walmart and Target and Lowe’s and Home Depot and CVS. I was like, ah, this is what it means to protect a brand. During this time, I was also doing freelance. So I said, I want to move into doing this full time, and I want to continue on a bigger scale to serve businesses in my community that I believe in, people that are making cool stuff, doing cool things, have cool organisations. So in 2012 I launched Cheers Creative and been doing brand identity design and web design for creative professionals, industry leaders, nonprofits, art causes.
Dana James Mwangi:
Ever since I did.
Lee:
Such a cool story, I’m still chuckling about the bank stuff. But I’m.
Lee:
Loving the whole journey now. I mean, can we jump in a time machine with you? It’s my favourite illustration of jumping in a time machine, because it’s the only way I can imagine it. But if we could go back to 2012, that’s a massive decision you made to go ahead and launch a creative agency. Yes, there are a lot of people who are listening right now who are freelancers. They’re either doing stuff on the side or they are literally about to pivot and kind of go from just, you know, the day job of doing a few hours for other people to actually launching a full agency. Can you just tell us how you actually got started and what what may have held you back and how you pushed through that?
Dana James Mwangi:
Oh, absolutely. So before I decide, so what made me take the leap in the first place? What I noticed about corporate culture is that corporations tend to respect and pay consultants more than employees. Yeah, I said, okay, consultant is the magic word and there was nothing to get angry about, you know? I just said, hey, I need to get on the other side also. At that time, I was I was a single mum and my son was in Day-care and school a combination of 12 to 13 hours a day, which is normal when you work a 9 to 5. But it just didn’t feel good to me. So I started learning more about entrepreneurship. I came from design school and in college they teach you about working for an agency, not necessarily working for yourself or marketing your skills. So entrepreneurship honestly was a new concept to me at that time. So I started listening to podcasts. Reading books started cutting down on expenses. I started taking work and getting, you know, more clients and just did a lot to prepare myself mentally.
Dana James Mwangi:
I had to do a lot of mental toughness. Yeah, seriously. And that meant even cutting down on music and just listening to podcasts every day on my lunch break in the car and just getting more knowledge about where I was. And that’s when it dawned on me. It’s more dangerous, dangerous for me where I am then starting my own business which is full of risk. But where I was actually was. It could be argued that it’s just as risky, if not more so. That’s what made me take the leap. I was terrified on my last day, I was hyperventilating, I was sweating, I was like, oh my God, I made the worst mistake of my life. I have a child. What the heck was I thinking? And then after, after I quit, you know, we got I got married and then found out I was pregnant with twins. And I was like, oh my God. I mean, good Lord, you know? And I was like, well, I’ve already left.
Dana James Mwangi:
So I, you know, I’m going to I’m going to keep going and see what, see what happens.
Lee:
Yeah.
Dana James Mwangi:
See what happens. And it has been one of the most thrilling, terrifying, exciting experiences of my life. Uh, being a full time entrepreneur, there’s been a lot of hard times, but it’s been a lot of unbelievably like, even now, like, my life is unrecognisable to me, and it’s just a lot of things that are going on right now. Those seeds that I sowed a few years ago are kind of popping up all of a sudden within the past two years, and it has been nuts. It has been absolutely nuts. I think my biggest battle has been confidence. Yeah, it’s been self-confidence and just yeah, that’s pretty much that’s pretty much it. It’s I can say it has been confidence, but the experience and gaining knowledge and getting out there and messing up and failing publicly sometimes is what actually helped me to get rid of the fear. Yeah, and just keep it moving.
Lee:
One of my favourite phrases is feel the fear and do it anyway. Um, now. So it sounds like to me, you first of all, started off by teaching yourself as much as you could. Like you said, you’ve been in design school. You don’t hear much about entrepreneurship there, so you just downloaded as much information as you could into your brain, and then you went ahead and did it. And like I said, feel the fear and do it anyway. You went ahead and launched that agency despite the fact you were hyperventilating and everything else that was going on. I’ve always noticed as well. It’s funny how you mentioned you realised you were pregnant with twins. It’s funny how so many journeys, something massive is about to happen, and at the same time people find out that some other separate personal life changing incident is also happening at the same time. So it’s like a double whammy, right? Oh my.
Lee:
Gosh. Right.
Dana James Mwangi:
It was nuts because if I had found out before I quit, I probably would still be there today. I’d be like, well that’s it. No, never mind. I’ll just stay where I am.
Lee:
Exactly. I think I want to pick up as well.
Lee:
You said that you realised it was just as risky to stay where you were, because we don’t know how long these companies are going to last. We see on the news all the time, don’t we, that companies have failed or people.
Lee:
Are being laid off, etc. and you’re like, well, I might as well be my own boss and do things for myself. Feel the fear and do it anyway.
Dana James Mwangi:
Feel the fear and do it anyway.
Lee:
Yeah, exactly.
Lee:
How did you guys start? I mean, so day one, this is D-Day. You’ve done it. You’ve hyperventilated, but you’ve still gone ahead and done it. Day one. How did you start generating leads?
Dana James Mwangi:
So I started that. I started doing work a little bit before I officially launched as Cheers Creative. And like I said, I always had connexions because I was doing freelance. I actually started doing freelance in college because I had my first child in college and I was like, I, I can supplement my income and still be learning while I’m working by doing freelance. So I was always I was already known in my community as a graphic designer and as a print designer. So I relied heavily on those relationships, you know, and word of mouth and all that jazz. But of course, after it’s a whole different ball game, once you are fully full time employed and you need bigger accounts and different things like that. So what I did is I amped it up online, you know, I’m a I’m a new mum again, and I’m trying to figure out what, you know, how do I make myself different? How do I help people see that I’m the one? So this is what 2012, 2013?
Dana James Mwangi:
I started blogging and not just showing work, but showing my knowledge. All this stuff that I learned in college and what I learned in corporate about actually protecting a brand. Like, I just started sharing everything that I knew and just trying to lead people back to the site. I did, you know, some speaking engagements every now and then. I was on all the job boards, just trying to get as much exposure as I could, and the internet became my friend. And in doing all that stuff, I didn’t it didn’t seem like I was getting a lot of traffic. But then in 2014, Forbes referenced one of my blog posts about logo design. I believe logo design logos don’t have to be literal literal, and it’s probably better that they are not. And I wrote that in 2014. Didn’t have any comments on it. I didn’t think anybody was paying attention. And then, um, I saw I was getting traffic from the Forbes site and saw that they had wrote an article about logo design and referenced my blog post in their post.
Lee:
Nice.
Dana James Mwangi:
And I was like, Holy crap. So that was that was 2014. And that’s so then, you know, the inquiries really started kicking up then. And then I started building websites with WordPress, and there was a particular WordPress theme that I liked to use, and I reached out to the authors of that theme and told them, I love your product. Here’s what I’m doing with it. I redesigned my site. I’m doing several client sites with it. I love it, and they was like, oh, this is great. You do great work. A couple of months later, they reached out to me and said, would you become an endorsed partner with us and help and customise our theme for our customers? So now I’m working with people all over the place Florida, Vancouver, uh, Tokyo, you know, the UK. And it was like almost overnight. And from there the podcast interviews, the blog interviews, speaking engagements, stuff. It just started rolling in and the website showcasing, showcasing my work and things like that.
Dana James Mwangi:
It just kept rolling in. And so I get a flood of inquiries from press. Press has been my number one tool in getting really quality leads and some unbelievable inquiries and job and project opportunities.
Lee:
So and I’ve seen I’ve seen some of these as well. If people again check out Dana James Mwangi. Com you’ll see in the interview section you’ll see all the places that you’ve been featured. So with those places you’ve been featured on TV, etc., how did they lead to connexions then with, you know, and to jobs?
Dana James Mwangi:
So yeah, so like I was just featured on essence magazine, they had a talk show and they invited me on. And so like you make really you build relationships with the producers of those shows and then people, you know, they have a YouTube channel. So they posted it on YouTube and you just get inquiries from there. And you know, when you, when you, when you do things like that and you, you know, you’re nice and, you know, warm and approachable people don’t forget that. They just don’t forget it. I think so confidence and just really showing up with compassion and things like that, that those have been my number one tools honestly in, in getting, you know, ahead, honestly.
Lee:
Showing up and being your unique honest self.
Dana James Mwangi:
Yes. Your unique honest self. Yes.
Lee:
People are drawn towards you. Well, it’s exactly what I was drawn towards as well. I’ve listened to some of your episodes, you’ve got your podcast where you’re talking on things like pricing etc. but also seeing you, I watched the clip of you being interviewed that was on the Essence Talk Show. You’ve done amazing. I mean, everything you’re doing is all the stuff I would love to do. I want to, I want to be on TV.
Lee:
I’ve got I’ve got a beautiful bald head, I want to get on the TV, so you should.
Dana James Mwangi:
And I really appreciate that. That means a lot because that’s the reason why I’m doing this. I was like, I can’t be another graphic designer. I can’t be another web developer. If I’m telling you that we build brands and we build websites by helping you be yourself, and we’re telling you that your story is your number one most powerful asset, then yeah, I’m going to have to show up like that too. So I started a podcast, but I started mine in a park and I still don’t have a name for my podcast, and I did it like that on purpose because I want clients to know you don’t have to have 50 blog posts in the can before you start working with us. Like, you know, let let’s get you going. You know, let’s let’s, you know, let’s get you started on the business. Let’s get you some customers. Let’s get you some followers, let’s get you some feedback. So we actually have something to design. So and it goes against everything I was taught in design school.
Dana James Mwangi:
Make sure everything is pixel perfect. But you got to have something to design for.
Lee:
Absolutely.
Dana James Mwangi:
So that’s why I got out there and put that podcast out there. And I hope one day it’s as nice and well listened to and supported and, you know, as professionally produced as, as yours. I would love that. But I was like, I have to get going or I never.
Lee:
We’re still making it up as we go along, to be honest.
Lee:
Absolutely winging it, I think is the UK phrase I don’t know what the USA phrase is. You use anchor as well, and that’s a great way of just fast tracking the whole podcast creation. So just getting rid of all of the excess stuff that everybody worries about and puts people off. We all put blockers, don’t we, in our way of, oh, well, I don’t have podcast artwork, I don’t have this, I don’t have that. I’ve not got an amazing mic, I’ve not done this, that and the other. But if you just use something like anchor and just go for it, just show up and share. Share your knowledge like you are doing. The way you’ve done it is absolutely perfect as well. I mean, your podcast artwork is a picture of you. You are the brand.
Dana James Mwangi:
Yep.
Lee:
It’s a part of your website. Again, we’ll drop that link. Dana James Mwangi comm check the show notes if you don’t know how to.
Lee:
Spell that, but click on podcast. You can see the podcast is there. So folks, I know a lot of people in the agency trailblazer community have been asking me, how do I start a podcast? And yes, I’m I’m creating a course now for free on how to do that.
Lee:
But why not follow Dana as well and just show up and start anyway? Because. Well, all right, here’s a question then for you. So and this will really help people who listen I think a lot of people think they don’t know a lot, so they don’t show up.
Dana James Mwangi:
What would you say.
Lee:
To those people? How would you encourage those people? Because you are. Absolutely. I mean, you’re putting it’s a big risk turning up on TV or turning up in a magazine, you know, and saying stuff, and the internal negativity might start and go, you don’t. What are you talking about? You don’t know anything about this, you know?
Dana James Mwangi:
Oh, right. If you are listening and you feel like that, you are wrong. You are wrong. You are walking around with more in your bag than you think you are. The reason why you don’t think what you know is so special is because it’s you. You’re in your skin. You’re living your life. You don’t see you from the outside. You know, I don’t know if lions go around saying I’m a lion, you know what I mean? They don’t see. So it’s like, you know. And what’s funny is. So I was invited to speak at the awards conference awards spelled with three W’s as a nod to the web. I got a chance to speak among people from Uber and Nike and Google and Behance. And I came up in there and I was I was a bit nervous at first because I was like, what I do know is my story, and I didn’t know if these developers and designers wanted to know my story, but I was like, it’s what I know, and it’s the only way I can show up authentically.
Dana James Mwangi:
I can’t pretend to be someone else. So I shared my story, my journey from print to web, and the lessons in confidence that, um, that I had to learn along the way. And it went over extremely well. I wasn’t expecting that, but it took it took a lot of courage for me to just to share that. But one thing I shared in there is that everybody is dealing with imposter syndrome. Everybody thinks that somebody is going to find you out, that you don’t have a degree, you don’t have this, you don’t have that, or you’re not a hardcore coder. You don’t know how to do this or you don’t know how to do that. And everybody thinks that their process is some kind of especially if you’re self-taught, you think that your process is inferior to someone else’s. But the truth is, once you once you get out there and you be yourself, you may have quote unquote haters, but that is outweighed by the amount of love and support you’re going to get from people saying, oh my God, I saw myself in your story.
Dana James Mwangi:
And when you start seeing those light bulbs turn off, you’re going to want to continue to show up like that.
Lee:
I love that you focussed in as well on telling the story. We had a podcast maybe about six months or so ago with a chap called Frank Candy, and he was talking about public speaking and he said, one of the most powerful ways of engaging people and teaching people and pulling out from your mind the stuff you know is to just tell stories. And he’ll do. If he’s asked to do maybe an hour long keynote, he’ll actually just do six back to back stories. I mean, it might be one entire journey or it might be six back to back stories that all have some sort of lesson. And I’ve mentioned a few times as well on the podcast, people know I’m a Christian. I really love the teachings of the Bible. And, you know, Jesus taught in parables. So it’s a way of like you said, we can really connect with a story and we can learn from a story much more effectively than we can for you to stand up and say, okay, web designers and web developers, you need to be using this theme framework.
Lee:
I mean, I’ve literally switched off already.
Dana James Mwangi:
Wow. Wow. It’s switched off already. Like, are you going to be preachy or are you going to tell them about what happened to you and what you can learn from it?
Lee:
Exactly.
Lee:
Now, I love your website for the creative agency, which is Cheers creative. Can I quickly ask? It’s completely off topic, but how did you come up with the name?
Dana James Mwangi:
Oh, I’m so glad you asked me that. It’s one of my favourite things to talk about.
Dana James Mwangi:
So I used to be called Dana James Design, and as I started learning more about entrepreneurship and saying, hey, I want to go that way, I said, you know, I really need for this company. I need to be able to look at it as something outside myself. And for me personally, I needed that and I needed to be able to make decisions for it and not and, you know, take care of it. But, you know, I made a vow to myself, okay, I’m going to let this company grow in the way that it should go. Okay. And so giving it a name its own name was the start. So then the question was what should I name it. And so I want it to mean something, but I also want it to be catchy. So I started thinking about cheers. So cheers. To me that’s an exclamation among friends and people who know you well. They’ve seen you on your journey, or they’ve contributed to your journey in some type of way.
Dana James Mwangi:
You guys have come together to celebrate a milestone or some type of big thing and you’re like, cheers, you know? And so good design to me is something to be celebrated. The milestones or the goals that you achieve with good design is something to be celebrated and cheers. Cheers. The word cheers also speaks to my desire to build long term relationships with clients like we’re here for the long term. We’re not hitting quit. Here’s your logo design and that’s it. We are here to make sure that you that you continue to meet these goals. So our name is cheers. And so we’ve, you know the past couple of years done things to be more festive. So we have a client that was recently on the television show before. He is a music artist. And so when he was on live TV with I think DJ Khaled, you know, was like, hey, that’s something to celebrate. And so we like to celebrate our clients, um, openly. So yeah, that’s that’s what you I love it.
Lee:
I mean, I’m actually old enough to remember cheers. The TV series as well. So. Yeah.
Dana James Mwangi:
Right.
Dana James Mwangi:
Right.
Dana James Mwangi:
Where everybody I’m.
Lee:
Going to say cheers to you. Now I’ve got a beer with me as it’s the afternoon for. Well, it’s actually the evening for us here, so I think I’m allowed to. So I’ll just raise a glass to you now and say cheers as well. I love that story. That is so perfect. So and guys you can check that out on cheers creative.com. Go check out their website. Now. One of the things that I often say in the community is that you really need to love what you’re doing and loving what you’re doing. I mean, obviously I love the ethos of celebrating with clients and creating those long term relationships with them as well. That’s awesome. But it also kind of goes full circle to why are you even doing it in the first place? I’d love to know what is your why?
Dana James Mwangi:
Right. So I try to keep my why in the forefront of my head. Because when you don’t remember the why, you kind of just, you kind of lose energy. So I’ve always been an artist, and I was told. My mum told me I’ve been drawing and making stuff since I was four, right? So I’ve always been doing that. And when I got to college, I was actually undecided. But then I met another student who was in graphic design, and I was like, I think I’d like to try that. At the time, I was working in target, and I was always attracted to the way, you know, targets like shopper experience is like supreme with all the, you know, the clean, the clean layout of the beautiful displays, especially the seasonal displays. My wife loves target, by the way.
Dana James Mwangi:
Yes, yes.
Dana James Mwangi:
It’s for us. And what I didn’t realise is I was attracted to graphic design before I majored in it. You know, I didn’t know that’s what I was looking at. I was like, that gets me excited. So then I started taking the graphic design classes and I liked it, and it was still a way for me to be expressive and be an artist, but also help people. I could see the direct effect of my art in someone’s business. Yeah, I was like, I think that’s a superpower. Now, what happened was my first freelance client was someone who owned a cleaning business, and she was like, hey, I need business card redesign and all this other stuff. And I looked at her business card and it didn’t look like she was a cleaning service. And I was like, I can’t tell from this card that that’s what she does. So I felt like I knew what needed to be done. I cleaned it up. I made it crisp and light and didn’t, you know, use different shades of blue and and all this other stuff.
Dana James Mwangi:
And then when I gave the card back to her, she looked at it and her eyes opened wide and she was like, like that. And she was like, this is me. And I never forget that. That’s what she said. She said, this is me. Wow. And I said, yeah, this is you. And so then I watched her behave differently. I watched her then market herself differently, and I was like, that’s what design makes people do. It helps them to make better decisions for their business. So it doesn’t just increase a company’s bottom line. It increases that business owner’s confidence and that changes behaviour. And it helps me like I, I’ve always considered myself to be an encourager and a visionary. I could see pretty freaking far for other people.
Dana James Mwangi:
So, you know. I was like, you know, this is my this is my way to illustrate what I say I see in you. And so and I have the tools to help make that happen. And so I just I will never forget that change in her body language. And I just I will never forget that. And that’s what I want to see every time I work with somebody, every time I run a workshop, every time I run a course, That’s what I look for. So that’s my why I keep going. I keep chasing that. That reaction.
Lee:
That’s perfect. That is such a cool story. And I’m loving the fact that there is now a song that you can sing, which includes This Is Me from The Greatest Showman. So you can just play that whenever you need to inspire yourself. That’s an easy, kind of an easy thing to keep going over as well. Is, is, um, just as a reminder, I want the client to say, this is me. I want to see their shoulders straighten up and them to stand proud and go, this is my business. This is what I’m about. That’s inspiring. I absolutely love that story. You are a great storyteller, Dana, I love it.
Dana James Mwangi:
Oh, thank you, I appreciate it. No worries.
Lee:
Well, I, I just wanted to encourage you because listening to you is very inspiring and really encouraging. And I would love to reiterate to listeners as well. I talk about my why internally all the time. I talk about my why though to clients all the time as well. You know, our why is removing stress from agency life because so many agencies just give up and I’m like, no, don’t give up because you love the stuff that you do. It’s just the admin and it’s the bad clients and, you know, whatever it is that’s just upset you. But don’t let that stop you from running the agency that you love. But we have to keep talking about that every single week, because otherwise I don’t know what content to create. If I if I’ve forgotten that I’m stuck.
Dana James Mwangi:
So I will tell you this. Skillshare reached out to me to develop a market. They wanted me to develop a marketing course and I said, mm, I can do that. And so I said, what is it that I see people struggle with all the time? And it is telling their own stories and just answering that simple question, who are you and why do you do what you do? So I took, you know, everything that I talked to about with clients and stuff, and I came up with this formula, I call it the difference formula. And in it you determine what your difference formula is, and it’s based on who you are, why you do what you do, who you do it for. In other words, your audience and the method that you use. And I and I tell people it’s not your what because a million people offer that what you know. But when you attach who you are and maybe a different method, what you end up doing is possibly creating a different category inside of your industry.
Dana James Mwangi:
And so I have this, that course on Skillshare to help people articulate that. Why? Because when you when you’re a business owner and you got your head down and you’re doing that work, like you said, that wire just goes further and further and further back. So in that course, what I’m trying to do is help you bring it to the forefront. And I’m am I? I’m actually tricking people into into writing great website copy and that’s actually what I’m doing. But yeah, it’s on it’s on Skillshare. And I’m, I’m trying to help people get back to why.
Lee:
Folks, you can find that one on skillshare.com/user/james Mwangi I’ll make sure I put that one on the show notes as well. It’s called the difference formula. I’d already done all my research. It’s kind of like I’ve been stalking you. It’s kind of a bit scary isn’t it?
Dana James Mwangi:
Oh, I was like he knows the URL.
Dana James Mwangi:
What?
Lee:
Because you shared it on Facebook the other day? Because we’re Facebook buddies. And I was like, look at that. I must remember to mention that. And you mentioned it for me. So we’re all good. Now, there is a very common theme throughout our conversation today, and that is all about story, isn’t it? Even with your why, your why is a part of your story. It’s a part of your messaging. That story you told of your powerful moment makes me want to work with you. It makes me want you. I want you to do my logo. Do you know what I mean? That that’s the power that that story has. Because I want to have that feeling of, this is me. I want someone to be able to unpack what’s going on in my business and in my mind, and what we’re all about, and to be able to visualise that. And that’s an enticing story. It’s an exciting story and it really connects with, you know, the emotions, etc.
Lee:
so definitely recommend people go check out the Difference Formula course over on Skillshare. How cool is that? Skillshare just give you a call. Hey Dana, do you fancy doing a course?
Dana James Mwangi:
I didn’t know they did that. I was like, what?
Dana James Mwangi:
Okay.
Lee:
By the way skillshare, if you’re listening, you haven’t called me yet. So, um.
Lee:
A little bit upset just putting it out there. You know, I’ll leave my number in the show notes.
Lee:
Oh my gosh. That’s so funny.
Lee:
So I have a question actually, because you are very much about branding. You get logo design, you get all of these really, really important things. And a lot of web designers particularly have kind of come into the industry from a web design focus. So that’s not there’s no kind of branding background. And very often they will receive websites or website briefs where it’s like, here’s the logo we had designed 20 years ago in clipart. And can you build us a website? So have you got any advice for kind of web designers? I guess I guess there’s two avenues we could go for it. I mean, it’s getting your head around branding and the importance of that so you can kind of upsell that to your client and also learning it as well, or getting other people involved. Any thoughts to share?
Dana James Mwangi:
Oh, I got plenty.
Lee:
I got back,
Dana James Mwangi:
you know. So what’s interesting what’s interesting is I came from web design to web design, from a print design background and from a branding background. So I looked at web design as a tool to continue telling the story, okay, and making people feel at home online and all that other stuff. And as I learned more about web design and I learned about, okay, the thing has to work, it has to be responsive and it needs to most of all make conversions. Right. But here’s what I learned about offering web design. Number one, if somebody is coming to you saying they need a website, know that there’s an issue in the business that is deeper than the website off top. Know that there’s something going on, and it’s your job to get down to what the issues is. If you’ve never watched CNBC’s The Profit, watch that show and you will learn like like you will learn like it’s a it’s there’s some issues going on with that business that they think a website will fix. And it’s possible they might be right.
Dana James Mwangi:
But there are some other things going on that you need to kind of be aware of. You kind of kind of you kind of kind of get all up in their business to help them, to help them, you know, and also just know if somebody comes to you for a website and they’re saying, you know, we probably need new colours and we need this and do that. When you do a new website, you are essentially also building a new brand identity for them that is expressed that will also be expressed through the website. People don’t know that that’s what they’re asking for, but you have to tell them that if the website is not working, not just because the software is outdated, but it’s not speaking to the customer and it doesn’t look a certain way or whatever. What you’re also getting into is you are redesigning the brand visuals for them too. And I don’t think a lot of people realise like that. So even like that, I just told you about that first client, freelance client I had that needed a new business card.
Dana James Mwangi:
I gave her new colours, I gave her a new logo and I didn’t realise at the time I was 20 years old that that’s what I was doing, that I gave her a whole brand identity system on a business card. And so, you know, you have to understand that that’s you’re doing something bigger than a web design. You are helping them with their messaging and their content because you can design a beautiful website. But if the content is not compelling and it’s not emotionally compelling, most of the time it’s because they’re trying to talk to everybody instead of their specific audience. It doesn’t matter what the website looks like. So if you get into helping them with their content messaging and the way they look, you’re doing a brand refinement. You’re not just doing a website. You kind of got to back up and do an audit of the business. And don’t be afraid to say that, you know, because a lot of times and what they’ll say is, I need a website and I need it to look like this, and I’ve already picked out the WordPress theme, or I want to.
Lee:
Say about that just after. Thanks for saying it.
Dana James Mwangi:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dana James Mwangi:
They’ll say that. But let me tell you something. If you talk to people with compassion, you just keep asking questions. Keep asking questions and then you’ll say, hey. And then you just start talking to talk to them exactly how I’m talking to you right now on this podcast. And you’ll be surprised. You’ll have the ability to disarm and help people understand that this is bigger than getting a new skin for your online home. This is this is bigger than that. And the more. And also know that clients are scared. Clients are scared just like you are scared. They just had enough sense to find somebody to help them fix their issue. They’re dealing with imposter syndrome just like you. And so it is if you if you figure if you learn how to not sell features of a website and start talking about the benefits of having a brand that is talking right and looking right, before we get to web design, you will make conversions. You just have to learn how to talk to clients with compassion.
Dana James Mwangi:
They’re not being pushy. They just think this is the way they’re supposed to approach you. They’re supposed to say, this is what I want. This is the time. I want it by, and this is what I’m going to pay. And so what they do, they don’t realise. They don’t realise they’re coming to you and saying we want surgery, but here’s the glue. We want you to use. Here’s the staples. They don’t realise that’s what they’re doing. And so you, but you just keep talking to them. Keep talking to them about the fears and the challenges they have in their business and helping them to understand what it is they’re asking you to do. And that’s an art that took me years to learn, by the way.
Lee:
I think it’s an art that a lot, a lot of people, including myself, are still trying to refine over time. We had a podcast episode a few weeks ago where we were talking about creating proposals, and one of the recommendations in there as well was when you’re having these conversations about the problems of the business, etc., what problems they’re trying to solve, what the the message of the company is unpacking all of that is to, in the proposal, say some of those phrases back to your client in the proposal as well, so that they can see that you actually understand them. You get them that you are inside their business, you are part of their team, and they’re way more likely, like you said, to convert, to become a client and then to follow you down this journey of be it the rebrand, be it whatever. There’s so many sites I’ve, I’ve had a quote for where someone will say, all right, the MD really likes this colour. They like these three websites.
Lee:
And here’s our logo. And how much would it be for a web build? And I’m like, okay, well actually, how about I come and meet with you and you tell me all about your business, and then what we produce for them is something completely different.
Dana James Mwangi:
Yeah, absolutely. And I’ll even say this. Do as much as you can. Like, if I’m dealing with someone overseas, I can’t go meet them. Right. But that doesn’t mean that I just give them a proposal and email it to them and hope they understood what I was trying to say. So, like, in addition to, like, what you were saying, speaking their language and use some of those phrases that y’all had in conversation in the proposal. This is what I do. And I’ll say this right here on the podcast. This is a tip that I have. Take your proposal, turn it into a PDF or whatever. Then open quick time, open up that PDF in full, full view and go over that contract. Or go over that proposal page by page by page. Hello? Hello prospect, this is Dana James Mwangi with Choose Creative. I’m so excited to present this proposal to you. And I want to go over some points in this contract so that you understand what we’re saying.
Lee:
That’s brilliant.
Dana James Mwangi:
I send that MP. What is that, an MP three that that MP four whatever that is. I send that QuickTime file. Yeah I send that MP for file right along with that PDF. So there’s no need for me to send this off. And you don’t understand what I meant. So now I’m not just sending you a ten page PDF. I’m sending you my voice. You can hear my passion. You can hear my sincerity. Make it like at every turn. Make it like you’re sitting down having a beer with them and them being overseas and you not being able to see them. There’s no.
Dana James Mwangi:
Excuse.
Lee:
I definitely feel like we’re kindred spirits here because I’m not having a beer, by the way. Just saying, you know.
Dana James Mwangi:
Right that’s why. That’s why I said it. So yeah.
Lee:
Podcast fuelled by beer. But anyway, I love that. That’s brilliant. And just quickly then practically how long do you spend on that. Because obviously you’ve got the proposal. Is that like a 20 minute video or video. Is there kind of a magic time? I presume that I’m going to sit and watch it for an hour.
Dana James Mwangi:
I don’t try to time it. What I what I noticed is it may end up being five minutes. What I do know, especially high paying clients. I will tell you this. High paying clients don’t have time to sit down and watch a 30 minute video. So everything that you do needs to help lighten the load of a high paying clients day. So just sending a PDF and hoping they hold it, open it and read it, that by itself is gone. They need to read it, but that by itself may kind of slow some things down. So what you do is send like a quick three minute video that goes over what those deliverables are and what they mean and why they need and why they need it.
Lee:
Well, that helps them understand what they need to read as well. So. Oh, okay, I get that, I get that, I get that, don’t get that. So I’m going to go to page 15 and I’m just going to read that bit. And now I’m ready to rock and roll because Dana was awesome on the video. And like you said, I hear her passion, I hear her excitement, and I want to work with her and she understands I’m a busy person, so I’m going to give her lots of money for it as well.
Dana James Mwangi:
Which is. Right.
Lee:
Which is awesome. One thing I started doing is TLDR too long. Didn’t read, so I put like a mini paragraph at the beginning of each section that basically says.
Dana James Mwangi:
Yeah.
Lee:
This entire section is about this, and I’ll try and do it in 280 characters, tops. You know, the new tweet limit or whatever it is. 240 I can’t remember now anyway in that many characters.
Lee:
Yeah. And um, so I haven’t been doing the video, but I will try that next time. I think it’s a great idea, but yeah, I’ve been doing the TLDR problem. I guess with that though, is, is that they still have to go and flick through the entire proposal, whereas if I’ve got a video, I’m totally going to try this next, next one. I’ll let you know how it goes. I think it’s a fantastic idea, and I’ll just go through it because our proposals aren’t massive or complicated. But when you look at them.
Dana James Mwangi:
Yeah
Lee:
I guess especially for the busy clients that we have, it’s like, oh my gosh, I’ve got to read all this. All I want to know is the price.
Dana James Mwangi:
Yeah, right.
Dana James Mwangi:
And that’s all they wanted. So our ideal client travels a lot, spends a lot of time in the air, does a lot of speaking engagements. They get a lot of inquiries. So I’m going to do everything I can to kind of summarise what it is I’m trying to do. And then I’m gonna send you a video where I say your name in the video and I’m talking directly to you so that, you know, this proposal isn’t just a template that I picked up somewhere, you know?
Dana James Mwangi:
But yeah.
Lee:
Well, Dana, I’ve absolutely loved talking to you. If I’m honest, I think we could probably talk for another three hours so we could. So with that, I would love to invite you back in a week or so. We have an agency Life series where we’ve got, I think it’s like 15 questions, the same questions that we ask agency owners around the world. But I would love to kind of give you that. It’s like a lightning round. So I’d love if we could get you back on for that. And that’s a video as well, so people can see your awesome hairdo. I have a big thing about people’s hairdos, by the way, because I started to lose my hair aged 18, I now have this appreciation where I live, my imaginary hairstyle through everybody else.
Lee:
So this is a common theme. But anyway, it’d be great to get you on and to have that as well. But until then, folks, I really recommend you go and check out the guide to the online tools that Dana has created? That’s on Dana James Mwangi. Com and just scroll down and you’ll see the level up guide. There’s some tools for creative entrepreneurs. And we’re all creative entrepreneurs. So be sure to go ahead and check that out. Dana. How else can people connect with you. And then we will say goodbye okay.
Dana James Mwangi:
So yeah, you have Dana James Mwangi. Com I’m also on Instagram and Twitter at Dana James Mwangi. If you would like to check out my work you can go to cheers creative.com. And we’re also on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. They’re at Cheers Creative.
Lee:
That’s it Dana you are a legend. Thank you so much for your time.
Dana James Mwangi:
That’s nothing.
Dana James Mwangi:
But thank you I appreciate it and I can’t wait to be back.
Lee:
Cool, man.
Lee:
Thank you. Bye. And that wraps up today’s show. If you had a great time, then be sure to tell us over in the Facebook group. That’s agency trailblazer.com/group if you want to unpack your story, unpack your why. Then be sure to join us in the Agency Trailblazer community that you can find over on agency trailblazer.com. Also, if you enjoy consuming content over on YouTube, can I encourage you to go ahead and subscribe to our YouTube channel where we have tonnes of agency? Trailblazer goodness on agency, trailblazer.com/youtube. That’s agency trailblazer.com/youtube. We will see you in the communities. We will see you in the comments section in YouTube and we will see you in the next episode.
